User talk:WikiCantona/20080819184103
see their idea 編輯
- 有嘢講：/Comment：
I agree very much.
One more fact is that written language has many imposed restriction (grammar). When people think of Cantonese in written form, they know none of these restrictions. Written down what they speak is coming to their mind. Therefore, written Cantonese = writing down what people speak in Cantonese.
Bottom line is that, Cantonese does not have a formal written (\regulated, taught, refined) form
--WikiCantona 2008年8月19號 (二) 18:50 (UTC)
When you are talking, you don't have enough time 編輯
- 有嘢講：/Comment： When you are talking, you don't have enough time to form grammatically correct, or even logical sentences. It is true in all languages. It doesn't mean that we should forgo grammar when we speak; rather, we compensate for our inaccuracies with body languages, tones, and other forms of communication. Grammar is the glue that makes a collection of words a language. Notice that there is a slight difference between the language itself and how people use it. A good speaker uses a language well; a poor speaker uses it badly; but the language is still itself.
--* -- :-) Hillgentleman | 書 | 二零零八年八月十九號（星期二）格林尼治 19點06分05秒。
And whilst we are on this topic, I must say that I have seen many "official" but illogical 編輯
- 有嘢講：/Comment： And whilst we are on this topic, I must say that I have seen many "official" but illogical and grammatically wrong texts written in Mandarin. Does it mean they are "informal"?
--* -- :-) Hillgentleman | 書 | 二零零八年八月十九號（星期二）格林尼治 19點14分27秒。 2008年8月19號 (二) 19:14 (UTC)
- 有嘢講：/Comment：
Informal, badly written, careless, the author does think it though.... all many be the cause. Can you understand it?
--WikiCantona 2008年8月19號 (二) 19:54 (UTC)
Depends... sometimes we just get used to it 編輯
- 有嘢講：/Comment： Consider the question "這句話是什甚意思？" which mandarin speakers use and you may even find it in some books. You would find it awkward if you try to translate it directly into english: "What meaning is this sentence?".
Rather, you would say "What is the meaning of this sentence?" or "what does this sentence mean?" , or even "What meanings does this sentence have?"
The correct mandarin sentences are, respectively "這句話之意思係什甚？" or "這句話意指什甚？", or "這句話有什甚意思？"
Notice that a sentence has meanings, a sentence represents some ideas, a sentence can mean something, but the sentence is not the meaning itself. A sentence cannot be a meaning.
--* -- :-) Hillgentleman | 書 | 二零零八年八月十九號（星期二）格林尼治 20點07分05秒。 2008年8月19號 (二) 20:07 (UTC)
good night 編輯
- 有嘢講：/Comment：
I like that more. Some modern philosophers will disagree with you. the text is the idea, the media is the message. I will not go there, good night.
"but the language is still itself" 編輯
i don't know what you mean by "formal written form". 編輯
- 有嘢講：/Comment： A written form is simply a record of spoken words. And since you have time to refine a written form, it is usually more grammatical and logical than oral speeches. What exactly do you mean by "formal"?
--* -- :-) Hillgentleman | 書 | 二零零八年八月十九號（星期二）格林尼治 19點08分27秒。 2008年8月19號 (二) 19:08 (UTC)
- 有嘢講：/Comment：
sorry, not you have time to refine the form. But, someone refine it for you, called grammar. Double negative is illogical, yet often occur in spoken language. is it illogical because you are taught to believe so, or is it illogical because it cannot be understood. When double negative use in speech, people understood it perfectly.
--WikiCantona 2008年8月19號 (二) 19:21 (UTC)
Are you mistaken? 編輯
- 有嘢講：/Comment： What do you mean by "double negatives are illogical"??
--* -- :-) Hillgentleman | 書 | 二零零八年八月十九號（星期二）格林尼治 19點23分06秒。 2008年8月19號 (二) 19:23 (UTC)
"Someone refines it for you" - How so? 編輯
- 有嘢講：/Comment： How so? When I write in cantonese, I refine my own speech by checking what i write, editing, thinking about the best way to express my thoughts, choosing my words...
--* -- :-) Hillgentleman | 書 | 二零零八年八月十九號（星期二）格林尼治 19點25分19秒。 2008年8月19號 (二) 19:25 (UTC)
- 有嘢講：/Comment：
My friend, social process - lesson in school. Unless you are a machine (very good computer program), the refinement is written in your software.
To make it clear, you refine your writing. You only refine according to some predefined rules someone "refine" it for you.
--WikiCantona 2008年8月19號 (二) 19:34 (UTC)
when i speak, i am actually trying to represent thoughts in my brain with words; i make mistakes because... 編輯
- 有嘢講：/Comment： when i speak, i am actually trying to represent thoughts in my brain with words; i may make mistakes in this translation/representation process. So I refine my writing/speech, ie i try to figure out the best way to represent my thoughts with words. When we speak, since we have little time, we use gestures to help; when we write, we try our best to use words accurately.
--* -- :-) Hillgentleman | 書 | 二零零八年八月十九號（星期二）格林尼治 19點39分38秒。 2008年8月19號 (二) 19:39 (UTC)
learning 編輯
- 有嘢講：/Comment：
just repeat myself again. A process - the rules you learnt in school - is refined for you.
--WikiCantona 2008年8月19號 (二) 19:48 (UTC)
Only partly. Your school helps you; but you must do it yourself. 編輯
- 有嘢講：/Comment： In the sense that you cannot really learn a language unless you are using it.
--* -- :-) Hillgentleman | 書 | 二零零八年八月十九號（星期二）格林尼治 19點55分19秒。 2008年8月19號 (二) 19:55 (UTC)
Use it - reinforce it 編輯
- 有嘢講：/Comment：
Exactly, you use it as taught, you reinforce what you have been taught. Of course, you may question the fundamental and come up with your own rules. In language, it is rather difficult to question everything you learnt. There are time when you use your own ways, no one understands.
See en:grammar 編輯
- 有嘢講：/Comment： And I quote:
| 「 | Each language has its own distinct grammar. "English grammar" is the rules of the English language itself.
|
」 |
Every language, including cantonese, needs grammar (or rules) or else what you speak is just a collection of sound and noise without any meaning.
--* -- :-) Hillgentleman | 書 | 二零零八年八月十九號（星期二）格林尼治 19點28分39秒。 2008年8月19號 (二) 19:28 (UTC)
Convention comes first 編輯
- 有嘢講：/Comment：
Every language needs a convention in which common practice understood by the involved parties. Grammar is outcome of the study of these conventions.